No Conflict, No Interest

[00:00] Yeah, so I guess it's a... [00:03] Just a reverse trigger warning. It's a reverse trigger warning. You won't be triggered by this conversation. It will not be a rollicking ride, but it may be useful if you're thinking about... [00:14] entities, legal structure, DAOs, tax. Right. Hot, hot, hot topics. Fun stuff. Saucy stuff. [00:37] Just boy stuff. [00:38] Hi. [00:39] here we are here we are um what's boys club dina [00:43] Boys Club is a community for women building together in Web3. Wow. I just changed it. Trying out something a little new. [00:51] women building together in web three i don't know it just sort of came right but it's not quite right we're workshopping it we're workshopping it uh we're a social dow that builds great stuff with great people and we have a newsletter we have this podcast we have events we have a product guilds nfts all sorts of stuff so that's us um [01:09] A good place to start is where you're at. This podcast is a deep dive into... [01:14] A week in the life of a boys club-er and what we're thinking about. Yes, please subscribe and like. [01:23] And rate. And download. [01:26] So what did we do this week on this pod, Natasha? So we had a great guest. Anna from Metalabel just came in and blew our minds around, you know, this enabling technology and working together. And she's, yeah, she's very culture. She's very cool culture person. So if you're into cool culture, people type stuff like music and collaboration in this Web3 landscape, like definitely be able to listen.

[01:56] Some great stuff. And then we got into some pretty sexy topics. Formation and governance of a DAO. Entity design. Entity design and... [02:07] community governance and voting. It was pretty steamy stuff. Pretty hot. So check that out. Let us know what you think. And if you have some thoughts, let us know. And then we had a fun Ask the Boys where we talked about people asked us if they should quit their job and do stuff in Web3. And we said, LOL. Why are you asking us? We don't know. And then, no, we loved it. No, please ask us. And then should you get Botox? [02:36] We got some Botox cues as well. Yeah. We have a pretty hot take on that. Amongst many other Ask the Boys questions, which were really fun. So give it a listen. Check it out. [02:46] Like, subscribe, smash that subscribe. [02:56] Our guest on today's show is Anna Bulbrook. Anna, welcome. Hello, hello. Super excited. So excited. I just want everyone to be prepared here. Anna is very cool. Okay. She's very cool. She is a cultural curator. She's a creative producer. She's director. She's at something called Meta Label, which we're going to dig into on today's show. She's a music curator at TED, the founder of a feminist music festival called Girl School. She's also in a past life, or maybe

[03:26] professional violinist. She's worked with Beyonce, perfume genius, Sia, Kanye West. She's done work with Philip Lynn. The list literally is endless. It's endless. Of the work that you've done. It's so good. Dying to dig in here and figure out how you went from that to this wild web three world. But, [03:43] First, as is tradition, we're going to play Explain the Tweet with You. [03:48] So Explain the Tweet for our new listeners is a segment where we ask one of our guests to unpack one of their iconic tweets. A tweet that's done numbers or a tweet that is just very interesting for whatever reason. Or one that I just don't understand. Or one that has stunked us completely. [04:07] Iconic or inscrutable tweets. Exactly. [04:10] So for Anna, we've chosen this tweet, which you sent out on the 13th of July. [04:15] Bands are startups for art. Startups are bands for business. [04:22] Natasha, what's your level of comprehension on this tweet? Hot spot. I feel like usually I can hide behind like, oh, there's some like web three thing that I just don't, it's not clicking for me. This I'm just like, okay, it's cerebral. We're intellectual. We're digging in. So I feel like I'm pretty... [04:39] I I'm clear on sort of like the world of it. Like, I love this idea that like bands are like producing like a startup would where you're like putting things out into the world and you're seeing what's sticking. And then. [04:51] The startups are bands for business. I'm definitely getting stuck on. But my hope is that what we're doing here is there's some packaging around meta label because my main intention of having you on is,

[05:03] is to have some explanation of metal label as well. So anyway, I'll pass it to you. Tell us everything. Unpack it. [05:12] Um, [05:13] Well, my background before [05:16] being at metal label was I spent 10 years in a band. And I think, you know, we at metal label, we talk about how, [05:23] metal labels, which we'll get into, are startups for culture, little institutions and startups for culture. [05:28] And I think bands are startups for music. It's a group of people. [05:33] bringing something into being out of nothing. It's highly collaborative. It's, [05:37] You have to, I mean, [05:39] Unlike startups that make businesses that like, [05:42] sell things or do things that people need. [05:44] Bands make art, which is this like irrational good. It's this like, has this irrational utility for people. So people only interface with it if they want to. [05:54] it's only for joy or for, [05:56] whatever reason, um, you don't like need music to feed your family. So you buy it at the store or whatever and bring it home. Someone's like, Hey, can you pick up an album for me after work so we can have dinner? You know, um, [06:09] So I think [06:11] I think bands kind of [06:13] The ones that make it do kind of operate like startups. It's a small team, you're scrappy, and you're trying to make a business out of something that [06:22] is something you're imagining and seeing, and then you're trying to build it into reality. And you do it kind of against all odds, us versus the world. And the best bands do make successful businesses. You learn how to...

[06:34] capitalize on, you learn about all your revenue streams are and you learn how to work. And at the [06:40] making art [06:42] being this very believable [06:44] you know, authentic artists somehow like looking impossibly cool. I mean, it's a tall order. And then, you know, at the same time, you're supposed to master all of your self-marketing now. So I have like 17 different social media accounts that you have to tend with all these different [06:59] channels and then you have a team working with you. So you have your manager, you have all these teams. It really spirals when, when bands get bigger, but the best bands are businesses and they kind of operate like little startups minus the HR department, which is kind of a bummer. I wish all of music had an HR department, but it's, it is so decentralized. Uh, you only get this if you work at like a big company, like a label or something. Um, [07:22] And then startups are bands for business. [07:26] So after my last band, I kind of... [07:30] I kind of was like, I'm not going to join another band unless I really believe both in the integrity of the founder and then also the mission and then also... [07:39] You know, it's such a close environment. You really have to believe in every single person you work with. [07:44] Um, [07:46] And I think, [07:47] I think startups kind of function like [07:50] especially in early stages, kind of function like, [07:53] Bands. [07:54] But instead of making art projects, I mean, at Metalabel, [07:58] we do, we are concerned with creativity. The, like, core of everything we do is fostering collective and collaborative creativity. But, like...

[08:09] You are the small group of people [08:12] making decisions together, doing crazy things together, conjuring things out of nothing. And then also unique to how Metal Label works together. We actually physically... [08:21] get together as a decentralized team. We physically like [08:24] take over a house for a few days a year. So it almost feels like we'd go on tour. I left our last, I left our last team, team hang session being like, Oh, this is very comfortable. I feel like I've just been on tour. Yeah. But, but like talking about, [08:40] you know, [08:42] minimum viable product instead of like, does this chorus hit, you know? Um, so I feel like there's so, there's so much in what you said that like totally clicked for me. I mean, [08:51] I think the... [08:54] When a startup is successful, it's like magic in a bottle. Like so much has to, it has to be right team, right timing, right market. Like all this stuff has to happen. And I think it's very similar in music where, you know, [09:03] There are so many talented people that never, quote, unquote, make it because the timing is wrong or something just doesn't – they don't find the right representation, whatever it may be. And there's a lot of similarities. I can totally see the similarities there around this lightning in a bottle moment that happens with this small group of people that make it possible. I also think what you're saying as you were talking, I was like, man, there are so many similarities to what you're saying with DAOs too where you are like – [09:30] want your community, you're like a group, this group of people trying to build something together. [09:37] With this like very like shiny idealized view of what that means and like sort of like disguising it not...

[09:45] wanting it to be like transparently a business. Like, I feel like Dina and I run into this a lot where we're like, Hey, like what we're doing at boys club, like it's a community and it's a network of people. And we're trying to produce like cultural goods and all this stuff, but it's also like, we're trying to build a business, but that sort of feels weird when you're thinking about that in. [10:02] relationship to like a community as well, which is similar to sort of what you're saying around the band. Like you want to be cool and you want to be like so authentic, but you're also like, how do we make this work? And like, how does this actually like pay people at the end of the day and have a living? So anyway, I love, I feel like a lot of what you're saying as well in relation to DAOs and web three projects and stuff like that. [10:21] Yeah. I mean, I feel like sometimes the closest relationships fans have is with their manager who's like, [10:26] sort of like essentially your, you know, [10:29] uh, I would say like your cross-functional partner and managing all your other partners. And then also your business manager. I'm like, um, do you want to come on and be a boys club manager? Seems like we need it. Um, okay. Anna, I, I want to, um, okay. I really want to take into metal labels because they're so interesting, but also just, I have been stuck, uh, [10:53] Um, I, [10:54] I find it's, [10:56] It can be very heady, but the way I've heard you talk about it, you really bring it down to earth for people. So please explain metal labels. What is metal label? Is Boyz Club a metal label? Are we? I don't know. Would love your take on all of this. [11:11] Okay. I have, I have a way of getting into is boys club a metal label where I'm going to ask you some questions. Oh, wow. Turning it on us.

[11:20] But first, [11:22] Metal labels are groups of people who come together around [11:26] a mission. [11:27] an aesthetic, [11:29] an opinionated point of view, [11:31] to basically hold hands and release work together. And I think if you just kind of think about like in the most... [11:39] Um, [11:40] like, [11:41] punk labels. Punk labels were groups of people [11:44] who just loved a form of music and kind of DIY put things out together. Just imagine that sort of ethos. And I think the DAO ethos is really similar to that. A bunch of people who want to see something happen. So they come together together. [11:58] And I, [11:59] make it so. And in our case, we're saying you release work [12:02] And that work is, generally speaking, creative and collaborative. [12:06] So, [12:07] extend that beyond music and that's a metal label in my experience being part of a band is kind of it's kind of a metal label but it's almost like [12:16] You're a super mini container of that. [12:19] I would say, [12:21] my past festival girl school, or I guess my, you know, my always love girl school is a metal label and our output would be interdisciplinary experimental events, festivals, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, yeah, [12:34] And then... [12:35] You know, at Metalabel, I would say our sort of releases are both [12:40] tools and resources for groups of people to create and share that process together. And [12:47] like very using like the very, [12:50] Elegant tools of crypto or messy or elegant, depending on how you look at it. Tools of crypto to creepiest, really lightweight frameworks.

[12:58] for people to do that and just formalize it and, um, [13:01] and make that like really clean and easy. So you don't have to go like form an LLC to release things. [13:08] some albums with your friends, you know, or release, you know, [13:11] a group of NFTs with your friends or release whatever it is you want to release. So I think that [13:15] That is, did that make sense? Totally. It makes total sense. And it's interesting that you don't. So like, I'm curious about the crossover with Web3 and crypto. You didn't even say that word until 10 seconds ago. And so like, [13:30] I guess my second question about what is a mental label is why now. I think the why now is in the Web3 and the crypto. Can you talk a little bit about what the relationship is between that as an enabling technology and a tool set and how you're thinking about that? [13:47] like making metal label things. [13:50] creation and collaboration easier. [13:53] So I think the why now, [13:56] for metal label in this moment is twofold. One is... [14:00] Everyone's participated in the Web2 creator economy. And for new people, that's like Instagram, TikTok, Instagram. [14:08] Um, just... [14:10] even Patreon, like these tools that, I actually know, I'd say more YouTube. Yeah. But these tools that exist exist, [14:18] more like sort of your social media platforms, [14:20] that, [14:21] lock you into specific relationships with your audience, [14:25] have algorithms that serve not

[14:28] They're not designed to serve up your content more successfully. They're designed to get eyeballs, sell ads, and... [14:34] These platforms rely on all of us to create all this stuff. [14:37] And then they retain the value that's made from that profit and, you know, [14:41] They only exist because our work is on there and we have to use them because they've been the tools that we've been doing. [14:46] that have been available. So I think that Web2 was democratizing. [14:50] that like sort of web2 creator economy was democratizing, but it's also been individuating. [14:54] It's resource hungry. [14:56] Um, it's extractive and people are really lonely. Like lonely creators are like racing the algorithm to pump out as much stuff as possible in these specific shapes that are algorithmically determined. It's not how you best create work. [15:08] And I think, [15:09] just coming from my experience. [15:10] being in a scene with bands or, you know, in other sort of like high signal communities. Like I'd say right now it's happening in, in crypto and web three is this high signal space. Like, [15:21] The other side of that is [15:23] blockchain offers and crypto offers this suite of tools that, [15:28] that [15:29] I think, especially coming from my perspective as a music person, and I think different people in our team look at this differently, [15:35] But we all see this opportunity for this lightning fast, like really... [15:41] potentially elegant and lightweight way to have public ledgers that take care of all the back end that make, [15:47] doing your creative work or doing your collaborative work easier. Like I think blockchain potentially could revolutionize the [15:54] um, [15:55] publishing, the music publishing industry and splits.

[15:59] and how that's all [16:00] tracked and dealt with and could also potentially put [16:03] a lot of people whose whole job is to go collect royalties out of business eventually [16:08] So, um, but I think, I think there, there, there is an opportunity here that, [16:13] is, [16:14] is real and hard to unsee. And if you can get past [16:17] And beyond the scammy, hyper-financialized, like... Yeah, totally. [16:21] Shady. [16:23] and unattractive parts of crypto. You hang out with us in this world where we're seeing how [16:29] These tools can... [16:30] in [16:31] make collaboration easier, make decentralized teams a little easier to run, and just that kind of [16:37] be lighter weight. So I think that's sort of the opportunity in blockchain and crypto we're seeing. And then there's like this cultural moment of like, [16:44] responding to how hard it is to exist as a creator, how it's a distraction from actually making your, your creative work. If your goal isn't just to be an influencer or something, [16:54] and just kind of trying to move people into community and interdependence, mutual aid. Totally. It's so inspiring. I feel like the conversations that get me most juiced up about this space are conversations exactly like this, where it's like, [17:14] How, what does this enable? Like what is possible? What's more efficient? What's simplified? How do people connect better through what is being built in web three right now? And it's so much a part of what you guys are doing. So it's really, really inspiring. Um, [17:28] So let's say I'm a creator listening to this. What is like, how can they work with metal label? Like, are you guys live? Like, what's the process if you're, or if you're a creator and you want to connect with other creators, what does that look like?

[17:40] So we are still very much in our like, [17:45] ideation and building phase. So right now, the best way to work with MetaLib or to like kind of take advantage of what's happening is [17:55] uh apply to join the community um our network and discord and um [18:01] And there's a way to do that on our website, which is metalabel.xyz. It's, [18:07] We've started running our first laboratory, which is... [18:11] We have about 35 groups, about 80 people in... [18:16] are in a zoom. I just keep laughing being like, I can't believe this is all happening on zoom. I'm a part of that, by the way. And it's so you do a, such an expert job at managing this. Like the zoomness is almost abstracted out. I have to credit C club for setting such a good example that they zoom pilled me in a way. I didn't know you could be zoom pilled. [18:46] like apply to your discord and then you guys are running your first lab. [18:50] Yeah. And then we'll, we'll, we'll have announcements soonish. Um, [18:55] We're coming, we're, we're, we have some cool things coming down the pipeline. Um, [19:00] So, yeah. So I wish I could talk more about what's happening, but at the moment, it's really... [19:06] we're looking for [19:09] people who are interested in doing collaborative creative work in different shapes and everything that's cultural and creative.

[19:16] and [19:19] And, and we're looking at those, like, if you think of yourself as a group of people coming together to release things like a release club, we want to know about you and hear from you and, yeah. [19:28] Um, find out what you're doing. Okay. So it was called a metal label. Okay. So do you have a squad? Who's in your squad? We have a squad. We have a squad. Yeah. Great. Okay. Do you know how you all interact with each other? Do you know what your rules of engagement are? [19:44] Yeah, I mean, we have the DAO framework. So yes, yeah, that's pretty clear. Great. [19:48] Do you have a purpose? [19:49] Yes. Yes. [19:51] What is it? It's evolving. It's evolving, but initially, and still true to this day, is to welcome the next 1 million women and non-binary people into Web3. [20:03] We're evolving it to be more, I think, more metal label-ish, which is that we're looking to... [20:11] I guess within sort of that subset, create like a really distinct community of builders who are interested in collaborating and, and, [20:19] putting releases out into the world, whether that's product or media or content. So, you [20:24] I think that fits. [20:27] And then I guess that answered my next question, which is, [20:30] do you come together to release work in the public? Yeah. That is cultural. [20:35] Great. And it's not just like B2B. It's not just like, hey, we have another SaaS tool. [20:43] Great. No SaaS tools here. [20:46] The label meter is metering high. Amazing.

[20:50] I'm so like... [20:52] Happy and proud. All right. Thanks, Anna. Thanks, Anna. Bye. Thanks, guys. [21:04] So what's happening in our Dow this week, Natasha? I mean, I feel like we, for the past few weeks on the pod, have really been talking about... [21:13] vision, long-term... [21:16] Like what we're building, what boys can become. [21:20] And I just want to get a little bit more practical, get down in the weeds with everybody. My fear is, [21:26] My feeling, the little mini feelings check in here, is that it's just going to be boring for people because... [21:33] Some of this stuff is very boring, but like, it's what we're doing this week. It's what we've been doing the past few weeks. Yeah. And yeah. [21:40] It feels like, you know, if we're building in public, got to chat about [21:45] The legal structure of a DAO. The legal structure. The entity dance. So setting the stage a little bit, if you guys have been listening since we started the podcast, our very first podcast, we dug into this a little bit because we were like fully, which was probably like three or four months ago, fully just... [22:05] freaked out and nervous about the fact that we had both found out that DAOs are not legal entities and that there's no roadmap, absolutely zero, zero roadmap on how to, uh, [22:18] structure legally from a tax perspective, from an equity perspective, a deal. And so we got a lot of advice from a lot of very smart people that was basically like,

[22:30] Hey, you have no reason to be... [22:33] really doing this right now. You haven't had a fundraising moment. And doing it means putting a legal entity around the DAO or putting some sort of structure into the DAO so that there's... [22:46] Um... [22:47] like quote unquote paper around who owns what. Mm-hmm. [22:52] What type of thing it is? Is it LLC, C-Corp, all this stuff? Yes, exactly. So they were basically like, also, the more that you do now, or whenever you do something... [23:06] You open up yourself to risk of making a mistake, not even like a legal mistake, but just like making a decision and then realizing six months later, eight months later, oh, that was the wrong decision. We have to walk that back or we have to create a new entity or we have to adjust it, which is expensive and laborious and like all sorts of stuff. So the advice and that we took was basically do nothing. And we were like, perfect. We love that advice. That is perfect. [23:36] did nothing, but felt a lot more educated and a lot more confident. Well, we did nothing strategically. Strategically nothing. Strategically. [23:45] Because we didn't want to inadvertently close any doors. Yeah, which you hate. In the future if we wanted to... [23:51] Yeah, if we wanted to fundraise or... [23:56] Or anything like we could be inadvertently closing a door by putting too much structure around Boys Club and then it being the wrong structure down the line. Exactly.

[24:04] So then... [24:07] Um, fast forward to where we are now and things have changed and there's some stuff to clean up. There's some housekeeping and the main drivers of what has changed is we did our NFT. [24:21] Money came in 150 came into the organization, [24:26] And so that's one bucket. It's like, now there's some money. [24:31] So that has... [24:33] Mostly tax implications from like... [24:36] the outside world, that's the main sort of issue or thing like, [24:41] driving force around needing to put some structure in place. The second is, um, [24:48] a sort of like a social agreement that we've had with our founding team that like when the moment is right, we will put some structure in place for people to have a sense of their ownership in boys club and their upside. Um, and that, that also feels like it's coming to the surface, especially in a bear market where like the work is hard and like the, uh, [25:09] excitement and fun and like we're all just having a great time and going to parties and flying all over the world like [25:15] It's a little different. It's like right now it's like you're building and like, this is where you cut your teeth as an entrepreneur and like you really dig in to the things that you believe in. And yeah. [25:24] I know for myself that I want to have a sense of what my stake is in boys club. And even more so, I think for the rest of the founding team. So I, [25:33] That's the other sort of driver. Anything I'm missing there?

[25:37] Um, personal like liability. So correct. Like us. [25:42] Getting sued. Right. [25:45] So I think that that's... I don't want to give anybody any ideas. So let's not dig into that too much. I also don't want to give the SEC any ideas either. Right, because they're listening. They're definitely... They're like these boys club ladies. They're the ones for us. We're going to bring them down. 150 ETH and a multi-sig is definitely where all the money is in this industry. So yeah, but those are the big things. [26:15] tax stuff. So [26:18] That's the main driver. There's also like trademark stuff. And then like now we're starting to do launch some products. [26:30] Like value. There's like, there's like value creation that's happened besides just like [26:35] Which is amazing. Like there's things that I'm like, oh, something needs to own that thing. And that is really exciting. It also has implications that we need to do some housekeeping. [26:48] Yeah, so... [26:49] Here's our understanding of the landscape. There's sort of a spectrum of [26:53] of, [26:54] Um, [26:56] entity. [26:57] that you can put around things like this. So it's a bit of a Chinese buffet of legal options. It really is. You can choose your own adventure here. One is like full degen web three, which is pretty much just a token. Okay.

[27:12] And... [27:13] And the token really is the governance, it's the ownership, it's... [27:23] It's everything. It's everything, however... [27:27] Thank you. [27:27] All of these people, there is still a legal entity of an LLC. [27:31] That is just a shell. [27:33] I don't know that that's necessarily true. I don't know that that necessarily has to be true. [27:37] It probably is. For tax implications. Somebody has an LLC somewhere. Maybe in the U.S., [27:42] Okay, okay. Fair, fair. I do think that there's full DGN Web 3 orgs, full DAO, no entity, no nothing. That just don't pay taxes. [27:51] I don't know, that they're like somewhere and they, yeah, they're sort of skirting at people. I think that that's why people go anon. Like, I think that that's like the whole like DAO thing. Because DAOs are illegal. They're not legal and... [28:04] Yeah. So I think that that's one path. That's not the path for us. [28:08] Because... [28:10] uh, I don't want to go to jail actually jail, jail time, right? Jail time. I'm also a rules follower. You are such a rules follower. I'm a rules follower. So I'm like, it just makes me a [28:24] Then there's what a lot of DAOs do is like the Web3, the DAO sits there. [28:32] And DAOs. And then there's like a sidecar, like LLC or C-Corp. And there's some relationship in the ownership between the LLC or the C-Corp and the DAO. Now, this is what we're currently doing with...

[28:45] an LLC. So we have an LLC that... [28:49] basically is how we deal with the fiat world. So we get sponsorships for events. Those... [28:58] that comes in as USD into a bank account that's set up through the LLC. And then the, we basically pay out that money to vendors like the Jane hotel or some caterer or some photographer or whatever. And that's, [29:12] that's like the events business is run through the LLC. Um, [29:17] And? And... [29:18] the [29:19] sale of the NFT, [29:22] We knew we could do the sale of the NFT from a tax perspective because we did have a legal entity that we can say, okay, [29:30] this legal entity can... [29:33] pay taxes or be the thing that's doing this fundraise as opposed to [29:38] Just not having any, it'd be personal liability or personal tax implications, I guess. [29:44] Yeah. But here's where it gets a little weird. So... [29:47] there's some stuff with an LLC that makes it like not the ideal entity for a number of reasons. And so we're probably going to switch it over to a C corp or whatever, but like where it gets odd is the, [30:00] Does like when we have IP assignments or when we're like registering the trademark for boys club, do we put that in the C Corp? [30:09] Or do we put that into the DAO? [30:11] And, you know, [30:12] Because wherever you decide to put those things, like...

[30:16] that's where the value starts to accrue. And so it's sort of... [30:22] Like, I don't know. [30:22] you need to make sure that the relationship between the two, like, so I'll just set the table by saying like, we're, we are like, [30:30] fully invested in the vision of shared ownership and upside. So that's a really important value for Boys Club, us personally, and that's like the structure that we want to build around. But like, we do need to have some protections around things. And so it makes sense to put like IP assignments and everything into a C Corp. But then how the Dow... [30:51] One is that... [30:54] We are... [30:55] if the intention is shared ownership, that means the value should be accruing in the token, in the eventual token. Yes. So like every decision you're making should be thinking about how is the token price going to have more value. [31:08] be worth more and the things that you're creating around it have value. So if that's the case, [31:14] You have to start to think about, okay, your legal container, which has to be [31:19] which you have to have, like unless you're a D-gen, which we are an LLC or C-Corp or a foundation or whatever. What is the relationship between that entity and the DAO? And I feel like what I've learned through many conversations with many experts and lawyers and all these people is essentially like, [31:34] For the most part, that's like a social contract to say like the Dow owns this. You can write it into the C Corp, like articles of incorporation or whatever. But. [31:44] More and more, I'm like, oh, that's really just like...

[31:47] Kind of like you saying... [31:51] As the owner of the C-Corp, the DAO owns this, and the token distribution is what represents actual ownership. Like, how much... [32:00] you and I get as co-founders or the core team gets as founding team or whatever. Like, [32:05] That allocation is where replaces your cap table. [32:09] Like the cap table doesn't exist within the C-Corp. All of the value distribution to the team and to the contributors and to the shared upside happens in the distribution of token. [32:20] Mm-hmm. Right? Right? [32:22] I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so for us, it's like, we don't have a token yet. [32:26] we're going to wait to do a token until like, [32:30] there are some favorable conditions to launch into and, and, [32:34] So... [32:37] So in the meantime, it means that you and I are making some moves and [32:42] to shore us up. [32:44] legally from a tax perspective to set us up for success when a token distribution does happen. So there's some trust. There's some trust in that. There's some trust in that. Another option is to, um, [32:57] have [32:58] non-transferable nfts non-transferable token something to the founding team to tell them hey this is going to be what your allocation [33:08] of token will be when we launch a token [33:11] So that there's some security and it's like, I don't think anybody doesn't trust us. I think they're just like, how much is it going to be? And we're like, great question. Because then, okay, you're moving to the next part. You're like, okay, great. This is what has been the journey for us. We're like, okay, great.

[33:27] The legal ambiguity is starting to become a little bit clearer. The path to the decisions and moves that we need to make from that are like in front of us. But then it's like, great, now that you figured that out, the next phase of this is... [33:39] is... [33:41] like your tokenomics, which is like, so, so important. It's like your, it's like the design of your cap table, which if you talk to anybody who's like, [33:50] taking a... [33:51] company public or done like, you know, I had a big acquisition, like the whole deal can fall apart if your cap table is fucked. And so it's similar with token, except that it's immediate. So like, you know, basically right away, if you've made some really bad decisions around your token economics, or your token, tokenomics. So now we're moving into some questions about token on tokenomics. [34:11] Tokenomics? Yeah, tokenomics. Okay, great. And then there's all these questions of like, [34:16] Are you... [34:18] If we own the C-Corp or the LLC, and we also have this allocation of... [34:26] founder tokens, which I believe we will, are we like double dipping? Like, I don't understand how that's not double dipping. And then I'm sort of like... [34:35] Is this a conflict of interest? But like, no conflict, no interest. You know what I'm saying? No conflict, no interest. [34:43] Anyway, it's a big knot. We're trying to untangle it. If you are a tokenomics... [34:49] Expert, you're listening to this. [34:51] And you want to help us. Come help us. Come help us. We've had some really great people actually help us already. And I'm really thankful for that. Yeah, me too. And feel like that...

[35:03] Um, just shout out to the seed club team and all of the people that are part of the seed club universe, because they've been so. [35:11] generous with their time. And it's also been like very... [35:15] inspiring to me in terms of like what's possible within like the web three world of, um, [35:23] Um... [35:25] Like people are incentivized to help you. Like this is the relationship with seed club. They get a percentage of our tokens. [35:31] for being a part of their incubator or accelerator or whatever they're and, [35:37] Also for like the... [35:39] continued support that they're giving us and like totally worth it. Totally 100% worth it because they want to see, uh, [35:45] Boys club make good decisions. They want to make sure that... [35:48] our token economics are [35:50] healthy and appropriate and good for us and good for our community and good for them. And like. [35:56] I'm like, this is great. I want somebody who has some skin in the game. [35:59] You know what I mean? Totally. Aligned incentives. That's the magic of what we're doing here. Yeah. It is. Okay. [36:06] So anyway, that's what's going on in, in Dow structure. Um, and a huge part of that is like also how you think about governance. So. [36:14] We've had some development of governments over the last few months too, and that's actually starting to come into the wild. So should we talk a little bit about that? Yeah, let's do that. So we're doing our first dowing this week, official dowing. And what that means is that – [36:30] Um, [36:31] Our two Dow Ops co-leads, shout out to Parker and Amy, they have designed...

[36:38] something called a minimum viable community. And there's a blog post, incredible blog post that they wrote about this, which I will link to in the show notes. Check me out. Podcast. Look at you. Podcast host. [36:53] So... [36:53] Uh, but, um, [36:56] So you should read that. But basically the concept is this. So in sort of the lean startup approach, [37:03] Approach, philosophy, methodology. There's something called the minimum viable product, which is basically like... [37:10] the thinking is like, how do you get a product out into the world where people are starting to use it and test it and give you feedback on it as quickly as possible? And so because sort of within that philosophy, it's like, [37:23] Your customer feedback, your user feedback is everything. And how people are actually using your product is like the most valuable data that you can have in designing something. And also it's designing for the fact that you know you're going to get things wrong. Like you know you're going to. You're definitely going to get things wrong. You got to test, learn, and iterate and whatever. So that's sort of that. [37:43] way of approaching product development and really sort of startup development. And so within, and we love it, love it because we've both gotten stuff very wrong. [37:54] We love it because we didn't do it. We didn't do it. And so we're now devotees to the lean startup methodology and [38:03] Um, [38:04] So as we're thinking about the DAO, they design...

[38:09] sort of using a similar approach. I don't think they invented this, but it's something called the minimum viable community, which is basically like, how do you... [38:18] like test some assumptions that you have around DAO operations, governance, process to like how people vote, where people vote. Like, how do you, how do you test that and ship it in a way that is like as, [38:34] as scrappy and small as possible so that you can do it fast, but with a meaningful enough number so that the data that comes back from it is telling in various ways. So this is the idea of a minimum viable community. And we are launching the Boards Club Minimum Viable Community is going to be [38:52] the founding team, core team, and contributors to the Boys Club Association, [38:58] to Boys Club. So that's what's making up season one of our DAO is this subset of people in the community. It's going to be about 40 odd, 45 people. And... [39:09] Basically... [39:10] And this is the small group of people that for this season one of the DAO are going to be involved in the governance. So we'll be submitting proposals, we'll be voting on proposals, basically like governing the use of funds that came in through the Zaddy NFT sale, which is 150 E sitting in a multi-sig. Yeah. [39:31] through this first season of doubt, which by the way is worth sort of talking about in and of itself. Like the idea is that the Dow will evolve, like it's going to change and it's going to involve. And like,

[39:42] That was like a real mental shift for me because like I think of like companies and like entities as like fixed things, right? Like it's like papered. You get some – you do like the – [39:55] Articles of operation and it's like heavy to change it lawyers, this, that, like it's this whole big thing. And like, you know, and Dow is a, you know, [40:04] Like you want to have that a similar level of rigor, but like there is a lot more flexibility and there's this idea that it will grow and evolve as the community grows and evolves, which I love. I think it's really a great part of like sort of how to think about approaching your DAO. [40:18] So for our season one, we're using the smaller subset. We're going to test out like how does – how – what are – like are people going to be submitting proposals? Are people going to be voting on proposals? So some things that we've done around that is also – [40:32] setting some KPIs around, okay, what would make this successful? [40:36] What level of engagement, how many votes happen, how many proposals come in so that we have... [40:44] in the same spirit of like testing and iterating and like designing for emergence, being able to point to something and say, okay, this was successful or this was not successful. And if it was successful, okay, we can roll it out in X, Y, and Z way. Or if it was not successful, what do we want to change about it? Um, that better fits our community or better fits our operational capacity or whatever it may be. So I'm really excited about the way where we've landed and, and Amy and Parker's thoughtfulness around this, because I think we've,

[41:13] What's really exciting to me about it now is like your, it feels like a much more human, um, [41:20] centered, centered, [41:22] Thank you. [41:23] approach to an organization. Like you're really thinking about people and their incentives, their ideas, the work that they're doing in the whole design of how this organization. [41:35] entity is... [41:37] Designed and incorporated as a thing in the world that's producing things. And this approach, like as you were saying, in that you have to design for... [41:48] it to evolve because people change. And, and as we're thinking about how we design for our community, it's like, we want people to be able to come in and come out and have seasons and have times where they're contributing at times where they're not. And like, [42:01] I think all of this approach... [42:04] really lends itself to that type of behavior and that type of like production and output in the world. So yeah, [42:11] That's rolling out the first voting vote. [42:15] system and ability to vote and [42:20] submit proposals is happening this week, which is exciting. Yeah. Huge. It's so exciting. We're submitting our first proposal for a zine project, which, um, we'll be talking about a lot more. I have one feeling. I have one feeling about the voting. [42:35] I'm just like... [42:37] What if like... [42:39] bad proposals get approved? What if like bad ideas get approved? Well, I think the hope is that

[42:48] Like there's wisdom in the crowd because these are people who – [42:53] are contributing and doing the work and know boys club enough to be like values aligned and, and, [43:00] Wait, sorry. Scammy? Was that your concern? No, no, no. Not scammy. Oh, okay. I thought you said the word scam. I was like, I don't know. I'm like, someone's scamming us. [43:07] Ha ha! [43:08] Someone's like, I'm submitting a proposal to just... [43:12] do my own shit. Um, I know, but like, don't you feel that at all? Don't you feel nervous about that at all? [43:18] I just think I... [43:21] I trust the judgment of... [43:25] the, I trust the, [43:28] the judgment of the team and the contributors enough to know that like, [43:35] Thank you. [43:37] Also, there's like debate around it. It's not like it's not so black and white. I know. It's like you get to like it's not so binary. I think so much of how we've been operating has been. [43:47] so deeply collaborative and so conversational. Like anytime we're like releasing a statement or, or thinking about a partnership, like there's this like dialogue that happens in discord around it. [44:00] And... [44:01] opinions are heard and then a decision is reached. And I think as we move to a more structured like voting, [44:08] I'm just like, are we going to lose that? Yeah, I don't think you lose that. I don't think you lose that. I think that there's still debate. I think that one thing that we need to be mindful of is like, [44:17] And this is something that

[44:19] I'm doing for my day job right now, which is like, [44:23] um, [44:24] like designing with the community, I think you need to be really careful not to then design by committee because I think that you, it's really easy to lose an edge on something like to lose a little edginess to lose the sort of like, you know, [44:37] hard to describe, like, je ne sais quoi thing of, like, and let's just call it a logo, right? Like, if you're designing, like, did you see that meme that went viral this week that was like, why are all these, like, people starting to [44:50] use the same sort of logo thing. And [44:53] Within that, it's sort of like... [44:55] I mean, for me, at least how I interpret that is sort of like – [45:00] iconic brands. [45:03] Um, [45:05] would like... [45:06] are such because they have a really strong vision. Yeah. And... [45:11] that, [45:13] really strong vision [45:14] is typically like... [45:16] Driven by a few people. Yeah. Not like a huge crowd. Because if like... [45:23] Mm-hmm. [45:24] And so I think that like, I always want to make sure boys club has that edge, has a little edge in it. And yeah, [45:30] I think it's really hard, it's really easy to sort of [45:33] S. [45:34] Soften the edges of things when you're in like a community, when you're in a group. A group think. Yeah. Think, yeah, type of moment. And so – [45:41] Um, I think that's like a good, that's good for us though. Like that's a good call out because I think that actually makes clear the work for you and I to do like, I think you and I.

[45:52] have the clearest sense of what Boys Club is and maybe what it should be, maybe not. But I do think like the work as founders is to say, is to like, be like, this is what we think the vision is with open conversation and ability to speak into that and collaboration. But for me, it's actually really clarifying when you say that, because I'm like, oh, that is [46:14] That like crystallizes some of the work [46:18] That's mine. That is important so that we do keep... [46:22] a distinct voice and an interesting vision and don't just get, [46:26] So much into a hodgepodge that it's unrecognizable as something distinct in the world. Yeah. Totally. Totally. [46:33] okay it's time for ask the boys so ask the boys is a segment where we get questions from our community dina gets questions from our community and then she asks them here and we talk about them and no feelings check in this week feelings checking we'll be back next week [47:01] So Dina, you're looking very excited. We'll bank our feelings. Yeah. We're going to bank our feelings for next week. Yeah, I'm excited. So also just if you ever want to ask us anything, you can do that. We have a Google form or I don't know, just slide into the DMs and ask us and maybe I'll make it on this segment. Okay. So also anything goes, web three, crypto, career stuff or anything. Oh my gosh. Dating advice. I would love it if this became like a. Oh my God. Dating advice. That'd be so fun.

[47:31] to start with some sort of left of center stuff. Okay. And then, okay, so just a first one here, should I get Botox? Preventative obvi is the question. Oh, wow. Preventative obvi. [47:43] I think there's a question for you. I have one more. I'm a yes, always. I mean, I do think that, like, I'd want to make sure – [47:51] I think... [47:53] Like if you're over a certain age, [47:55] Um, like not if you're like 18. Oh my God. I don't know people these days, kids these days. Um, I have always made the promise to myself that I'll wait till I'm 30 and I'm turning 30 in one month. So I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, seriously, no, literally try back at dermatology. The appointment is booked and I'm going to be like, fix me, ma'am. Um, and then sort of also part of me is like, should I go so that on my 30th, I'm looking so fresh, you know? [48:25] Having a big 30th, yeah. I'm a yes always. I think that like... [48:30] Do you? I think people, yeah, people... [48:33] Make a big deal out of stuff like that. But if it makes you happy, then go for it. Who cares? So we're both a yes for that one. What are y'all's horoscopes? [48:43] Oh. [48:44] I'm really bad at this. I'm like, don't know my sign. You don't know. I'm a Gemini. No, people tell me all the time. Um, it starts with an L. Oh, you don't know. You actually don't know. Uh, a Leo Leo. [48:55] Your birthday's in August? Yep. Leo. August what? 22nd. [49:00] You're, I think you're a cusp. I'm a cusp. I am a cusp. Leo something. What's before Leo? I don't know.

[49:07] Wow. So that's how much Natasha cares about it. I mean, people like read it to me. People always like love to talk to me about my horoscope and they're like, you're such a Leo or you're such a cusp. [49:19] what's your moon sour rising. And I'm just like, I don't know. I don't know. I just, I would love, you know what? We should have someone on the pod who really cares and talks us through it. Cause I'm sure it's interesting. You know who really cares? Uh, Blake Finucane. We should have her on to talk about her horoscope and stuff. So, um, maybe we'll pick that up next time she comes on. All right. A couple of questions in this vein. Um, how can a non-technical person get more involved in boys club? Also, um, [49:46] Yeah, another one. What's the best way to become a contributor in Boys Club without extensive technical skills? I haven't answered this. Oh, wow. Yeah, talk to me. I think you should join the Review Guild. Thanks. I think that that's like, that feels like... [49:59] a good sort of on-ramp to joining because they're doing – [50:06] some really fun stuff around reviewing different products and protocols and sort of as a group and then assembling those reviews to share out with the Boys Club community. So, and that guild is... [50:18] Under new management. Yeah. It's been revamped. Carmen is leading that and she's great. And she has a really cool vision for it. So I think get in touch with Carmen, get in touch with us, and we'll point you in the direction of how to join the review guild. I think also become a wingman. [50:34] Yeah. Wingman on the onboarding guild. The other thing I would say is,

[50:42] If you want to be a contributor to Boys Club, be in the chat. [50:47] Like be consistently engaging. [50:51] I, [50:51] I highly recommend that. And then when somebody, when you're, when you're doing that, and then when you reach out to us or you reach out to another guild leader, like you're known and people are like, Oh my gosh, like. [51:02] Jane, she's the best. She's been like up in here asking questions or answering questions or talking to people or like sharing about her skincare routine, whatever, anything. Um, because it's just a lot easier because there's many people in boys club. And so when we're able to like, feel like, Oh yeah, I know this person. It's a lot easier to point them in the right direction of where they would be best suited in various skills. And if you're shy and you're not really [51:32] Like, [51:33] Just start shipping stuff. Yeah. It doesn't, it just, it's, you chat and then it's like, it's gone in a couple hours. And so there's not like a permanent record of you saying something in the discord that you would like, just jump in. [51:46] Yeah. And like, I've never once seen... [51:50] somebody and thought, what are they doing in here? Like never, never. I'm always like, Oh, great. And like, if you post something in like the quote unquote wrong channel, like nobody cares. [52:00] No one cares. And if it's like, there'll be like a gentle course correction if it's like really wrong. Like if you're shilling and you shouldn't be shilling. Right. Someone will be like, in the nicest way possible, say. [52:11] Ma'am, would you please move this to the chill channel? So, yeah, you'll never get anything wrong. Okay, so...

[52:18] Uh, this one's sort of interesting life advice. [52:22] How do you make the decision between keeping your nice stable job or taking the plunge and starting your own Web3 company? She says in parens, keep an on, please. I think my boss listens to the pod. [52:31] Oh my God. Is she me? Oh my gosh. Well, hi. Um, hi everyone who's listening. Uh, I think this wasn't me. No, no, totally a joke. A hundred percent joke. Yeah. So that's such a joke. Um, [52:51] I struggle with this. It's a great question. Yeah, it's a really good question. My boss doesn't listen to this podcast, so I can be more transparent here. [52:59] I mean, honestly, my piece of advice would just be like... [53:02] Starting something is so fucking hard. You think I got it. I'm going to have to click the explicit button. I'm sorry, but the truth shall be said. Like, imagine how hard it could be. And then 10, 20 X that. So go in eyes wide open on how difficult it is to start something and think about that. And then think, would I be more fulfilled, more excited, more? [53:30] waking up in the morning, imagining your day, starting something. And if you're like, I got to do this, take the plunge, take the plunge. But I guess I would say deep conviction is needed. [53:40] Deep conviction is definitely needed. And also, because of this fluid Web3 world that we live in where everyone's

[53:49] Like, [53:50] polyamorous on different projects. Like just dip into something, dip into some DAO and contribute to some DAO or like DAOs and, you know, [53:59] Like, just, I don't know, try a bunch of different stuff. You don't have to do a full commit in Web3. You can do a lot of moonlighting and... [54:09] Dowing and dabbling and so I would say to do that first and [54:13] And... [54:14] I don't want to come off negative, but like, I hate to see people do this and then be like, wow, that... [54:19] I had some serious naivete about it. [54:22] I think that this is not Web3 specific. I think that's more startup-based. [54:27] Like, do I start the startup or not? It's not specifically about Web3. I think what Web3 offers in this situation. [54:32] I mean, do you? I don't know. Is that? Oh, the question or the advice? Well, she asked in the context of Web3, but I think your advice to her is like generally, whether it's Web3 or not. Oh, general. General. Web3 or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [54:44] Um, okay. [54:47] Show your favorite Twitter handle right now. [54:51] Mm-hmm. [54:52] Oh, actually, I saw this incredible tweet that was so niche. And then I started following this girl. Hold on. I got to find it. [55:00] Hold, please. Please hold. Okay. [55:04] Dahlia underscore... [55:07] Chai? Chai? [55:09] She's great. She's at Vanity Fair. [55:13] She's very funny. What's the tweet that got you in? It's too niche, but if anybody's watching the show Bear...

[55:20] It's like a chef show. [55:23] And the main guy... [55:25] I don't know. I always feel like on these things, I'm like talking about who I think is hot. And I'm like, I'm just like that girl. And I don't love that. But he's really hot. And she was like, and he's like a chef and he's like working in the kitchen. And that's the whole show. Okay. And she has all these pictures of him, a compilation of pictures. And she was like the working woman's Timothy Chalamet. So anyway, she's great. What about you? Who are you? [55:50] I don't, oh man, it's so hard. I'll drop it into the show notes. Oh my gosh, the show notes are going to be on fuego. [55:59] I want to watch that show. I'm really knee deep in Downton Abbey right now. So I got it. Weeks and weeks of this Downton Abbey. [56:07] They created a lot of shows. There's a lot of shows. Big content energy. So, yeah. But I got to get over to her. Okay, last one. Thank you for everything you both and the team do. So kind. What are your favorite ways to rest and recharge? Favorite snack when doing so? Oh, wow. [56:26] Okay. [56:28] Rest and recharge. [56:30] Um... [56:33] We're both spa ladies. We're big spa. I don't think we spa as much as we'd like to, but like catch Natasha and I both together at a spa. Oh, steam sauna. Yeah, big time. Steam sauna rotation. So definitely that. Yeah, definitely that. And then snack. Um...

[56:51] I sort of have like two, I love like a cheese plate moment and a glass of orange wine. Like just perfect. That's just really great for me. Perfection. And then like late night snack would definitely be like a bowl of grapes and like a few chocolate covered pretzels. [57:08] - Oh. - Yeah. Just like, you know? [57:11] Just dabbling before bed. [57:12] What about you? That sounds nice. You're a tea. You're a big tea lady. [57:18] Have a snack. [57:21] It's not a snack. I mean, I have two kids, so I'm just like constantly with the snacks. Just they're... [57:27] We're a constant snacking. [57:30] household. I'm not good at food generally. You're bad. Very bad. So I don't know, like a handful of raisins and I'm like, let's just. Handful of like goldfish. [57:41] Yeah. When I'm there, I'm just like, oh my gosh, the amount of times that it's like a cabbage and bean for dinner situation. Yeah, we do a lot of beans and rice. I mean, that's more meal time, but I need a lot of help. If I ever hit it big and really make a lot of money, the first outlay of cash is going to be for personal chef. I love that for you. Yeah. Personal chef for you. And... [58:02] Personal trainer for me. [58:04] And a spa, like an in-home spa for us both. Okay, this has been fun, but wow, we have meandered. Okay, bye. Bye. Bye.

[58:26] Do you have some draft tweets for me? I have one draft tweet. Oh, okay. I was really nervous. I don't know if you're going to get it. I don't know if you're going to get it. Oh, great. Great. Okay. Do you want me to go first? Yeah, you go first. [58:35] Okay. It's fully LARPing as a podcast host. I have no idea what that means. I don't know. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Live action role play. [58:44] There you are. There it is. Yeah. It's, it's so nerdy. That's a very funny tweet. Oh, thank you so much. You want to know where it came from? It came from when we had... [58:56] the interview with Diana from the Rehash podcast. Yes. And I was like, man, she knows what she's doing. She's a pro. [59:04] Yeah. She like had the system. She like, her intro, just everything about it was crisp. It was clean. She knew what she was doing and she was all about it. And I, in that moment, I was like, man, we're so messy bitches. I'm like, man, I've been so, I have not, I have been larving. I've just been larving because this is how you do a podcast and I can't do it. [59:26] that's so funny you and i just like fucking around with garage band just being like i guess this is how it works just sending i know i know files to your husband being like make it a podcast oh that's really funny you should tweet that you should 100 okay okay um okay do you want to mine [59:44] I've won. It's not great because it's very visual. It's a very visual, which I also just feel like doesn't perform well generally, but okay. It's a screenshot of a text between my husband and I.

[1:00:00] Yes. And I texted him a tweet. [1:00:03] Okay. Got it. And then I have some, some commentary on the tweet. Okay. So the screenshot is the text within the screenshot. The tweet within the screenshot is she's a 10, but she works all day. [1:00:16] And then I texted him. Yeah, I like that one, yep. It me. [1:00:18] And my caption is texted this to my husband. It's been hours with no response. [1:00:25] I was like, hello? [1:00:31] Matt's like, just too soon. It cuts too close to the bone. He's like, one, too soon, and two, like... [1:00:36] Not a 10. [1:00:41] okay see you next week okay bye [1:00:46] .