Ep 162: Feelings Check-In on friendship, parasocial relationships and Instagram

[00:00] I'm also really hoping to get an F1 ticket. So also using this distribution channel, if anybody would like to take me to F1, I'm available. The Feelings Check-In is a podcast for people who love to listen to two women overshare about the challenges of building a business, navigating careers in tech, and trying to have a personal life. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. [00:27] The Boys Club podcast? No. No. [00:30] Just boys club. [00:31] Okay, so you're going to Singapore next week. Monday. Yeah, six days. I'll be in Singapore. Are you excited? [00:37] I am excited. [00:41] I am excited. I will say... [00:43] You aren't coming on this trip. I'm not coming on this trip. [00:46] That is totally the right call on many levels. But I'm feeling like more anxiety around it, I think, because there's a few things, a few reasons. As a feeling stricken, just quick hits here. Always. One, you're not going to be there. And I have so much fun with you. Totally. So even when there's a hit on the fun radar. [01:06] hit on the fun radar. And like traveling the world with one of your best friends, so fun. Yeah. Traveling the world just... [01:12] just because it's your job. It is also fun, but it's a different kind of relationship. And Miranda's going, but Miranda has some other responsibilities and I don't want to be [01:22] I can't be clingy.

[01:27] You can't cling. Yep, I got it. I can't cling. And then the other part of it is we're at a point in this business where... [01:33] We always joke HQ boys club tagline boys club mission statement internal mission statement our values is fun only like it was like a value. You know how Facebook has their 10 values are only value is fun which is not actually true and. [01:49] I am feeling the, I don't want the trip to just be fun only. I want it to be very useful for this business. Yeah. The only, I do want to give some context to that joke because I feel like people who don't know us might think, wow. [02:00] what cool gals like carefree gals that's not it's it's only funny because we're not yeah it couldn't be me is really what it is we're really uptight and have a hard [02:16] I mean, we have a joie de vivre for sure and definitely have fun. But it's hard for us sometimes to see that. [02:25] We're all business. We are all business. Yeah. If you've ever talked to either of us, if you ever hung out with either of us, it's like, whoa, you guys are, you don't like this word for yourself. I am really intense. I had a great lunch meeting today and I called you right after. And then I was like, yeah, I'm going to get these into an action item. Like we're in, there's a drive and ambition and intensity that happens around the work and around boys club. So fun only is something we have to tell ourselves. Yeah. Fun only is like a goal. It's a stretch goal.

[02:55] Yeah. [02:55] It's actually what we do to correct each other when we're being not fun. Hey, fun only. So anyway, that's really helpful context. Yes, you're right. People don't know that fun is tracking low. I'm just like, okay, there's going to be some cool parties and like that's going to be cool. And we're doing two events that will be great that I'm really excited about that we'll talk about in a second. But like I'm bringing big things. [03:17] BD energy. [03:18] So if you're going to be there and you have some budget that you're looking to deploy, I'd love to grab a coffee with you and tell you about the media properties that Boys Club has and that we'd love to talk about your protocol on. So that's kind of the energy that I'm bringing. And so I don't know. I have a complexity around it. I'm sure I'll cry. A thousand one million percent chance. Well, also jet lag. So it's guaranteed. So I'll be depressed the first three days and then I'm leaving a day after that. So yeah. [03:45] You'll be up all night because you'll be on Eastern time. Not going through any sort of emotional spiral about anything. No, I am excited. A lot of friends are coming. So the two events we're doing are going to be super fun. One, we're doing a dinner with Nir, which will be great. And a lot of fun friends coming through that. And will be beautiful and just exciting to hang out with all of you there. And then the second one is a... [04:14] Brunch? [04:15] We're doing a brunch with Harpy and our amazing community partners, Serotonin, Leather, Bitcoin Wallet, and Alchemy. [04:23] It's going to be a blast. It's going to be really fun. The venue is so cute. I am excited to see Singapore, like the city. One thing about the brunch in particular is that's a great moment where if you're going to Singapore and you want to...

[04:37] just hang out and see some other boys club gals. This is, that's the moment to do it. So really grateful for Harpy for coming in on that with us as well as leather alchemy and serotonin and just a bunch of great folks having some [04:51] Burgers, I think, is really what's on the menu, right? Actually, there's only one slider. There's other food that's going to be really good, but it's not. No, don't worry. It's not burgers. That was corrected later as we got into it. Okay. So don't come expecting a burger, but come expecting great vibes. Great vibes and good food. I'm sad to miss it. I know. We're really going to miss you. You're going to wake up to one million voice notes from me. Play by play. [05:21] seems so cool [05:23] We should do something together. We'll be at DevCon. Yeah. We're lining up some stuff for DevCon. Which will be really fun. I already have my outfit for one of the events. Wow. LJ gave it to me. She was like, you should wear this to a boys club event. And I put it on. I was like, this is the craziest shit I've ever worn. And she was like, perfect. And I was like, great. Is it the shirt that looks like you're wearing a bikini? No. [05:43] I wish. I wish. Okay. Oh, this episode we talk about friendship, parasocial relationships, how technology makes it funny to be in friendship with people. How Instagram just kind of sucks. How Instagram sucks and how female friendships are... [05:59] A gift to the world and to me. So give it a listen. [06:04] Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way. If you're ready to check out

[06:34] So kraken.com backslash boys club and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to U.S. customers through Payward Interactive, Inc. [06:46] Hey, friendship is the topic of today's conversation. [06:51] Topic of today's conversation. Talk to me. I saw a tweet the other day that was like, I feel so bad for women. [06:57] who don't have female friendships because [07:00] No man will ever love a woman as far as no woman will. I liked that. I liked it. I know. I like it too. It was a great tweet. Yeah, we're talking about friendships. It was inspired by a tweet that we saw. What's not? [07:13] inspired by a tweet. No, my brain is fully [07:17] brain rot broken like i can't remember the last conversation that i had with somebody where i didn't bring up a funny tweet that i saw or a meme format that it was reminding me of like i cannot remember the last conversation i'm just like am i inseparable to be around i know i can't tell you because i do the same thing so we might both be out there in the world being just the most annoying people ever oh my gosh and people are just like they need to log off they need to log off okay so [07:47] smart guy IRL friendships with parentheses strong bonds who over time devolve into parasocial friendships [07:56] parentheses weak bonds because it's straight up easier to update people via stories on social media versus making an effort to plan or even text is a negative externality that we won't talk enough about. And this really hit with us at boys come HQ. It really did. It really hit with us. I included it in the two online newsletter in relationship to the new feature on Instagram where you can publicly comment on people's stories now.

[08:22] And there was a great tweet that was like, enough, in all caps, we do not need more ways to contact each other, which I thought was really funny and a very, very good tweet. [08:34] - My CTA in the newsletter was just like, maybe we just need to pick up the phone and call each other more. And, [08:42] that I've been thinking a lot about friendship this summer. [08:46] And thinking a lot about how as you get older and as you grow up, your relationships inherently become more complex. You have more history with people. You as a person become more sure of who you are and what you want and what your life should look like. And your time gets more valuable. [09:05] that inherently [09:06] means that your relationships... [09:09] evolve and they change and they grow and they have depth and but they also become much more complicated than when you're younger and it's pretty straightforward what your relationship with people are you know yourself less so i feel like it's harder but i have found that a lot of people in my life have been [09:26] having really significant transition in some of their relationships, specifically with their friendships. And... [09:33] I have a million other thoughts to say, but I'll just say that I think one of the things that I have found is that how it relates to our relationship with technology and how it relates to how we engage with these friendships when friendships are difficult and complex and difficult. [09:49] there's strife in them and how much we have all these different ways of feeling close to somebody that are in our

[09:56] fake. They're fake, yeah. When your relationship is complex and then you have this layer of fake engagement and fake knowledge about what's going on in their life, it compounds in a way that I think is really... [10:07] lonely for people because you're not like known by someone you're just seeing what they ate for [10:13] lunch. [10:14] Yeah, like performing for them. Yeah. Yeah, I think I have a funny relationship to this idea because... [10:24] I had an Instagram account. [10:26] for when Instagram started, I started it and nurtured it over many years. It wasn't public. It was a private Instagram account. [10:33] I had it, would post, you know, like any good millennial did and does. You did your job. I did my job. I logged the time. [10:44] uh, [10:45] you know, [10:46] Although... [10:47] Weddings and the food posts and the whatever it is. And then I'd say probably like... [10:54] Maybe three years ago. [10:56] And logging onto Instagram made me feel physically sick. [10:59] Like it made me feel like [11:01] so ill and I think partially because you see I changed so much and there was a perception of who I was based on the set of photos that felt so false and [11:11] And I didn't feel seen or reflected in like that profile of me, that like avatar of me. And also this idea of people watching my stories. I'm like, I had a drink with 10 years ago in some random bar and like we friended each other. And I'm getting like micro reminders of past lives and people that I don't.

[11:33] have any connection to. And so it like reinforced this like kind of loneliness and shallow relationship feeling and then [11:42] And then also another thing that was happening to me was I was getting... [11:47] posts of people that I was in relationship with, in real life relationship with. [11:53] that I was finding to be so [11:56] annoying. Yeah. And it was changing my relationship to people, what they were deciding to post, I couldn't get along with and was changing my IRL relationships because I was like, I can't [12:08] Take it. Stand the way this person is presenting themselves online. And so anyway, I nuked that account. I just, I deleted it and shut it down. And... [12:17] That was so freeing. [12:20] and was like, wow, shackles off. [12:22] I'm Nicole Kidman after the divorce photo. It felt so good. And didn't have an Instagram account. [12:27] for [12:28] two years, and then recently started one [12:31] That's private. Anyone who listens to this podcast is welcome to follow me there. It's the stupidest thing in the world. I don't post very frequently. Everyone's all throw up stories. And... [12:41] Everyone who is following that account is very in recent relationship. [12:45] yeah and it's just so much nicer i'm able to i feel a lot freer in it i am not carrying around the ghosts of these like instagram friends that like are on my back every time i post the story so that's where i'm at with it but i do feel a little bit of guilt in like having killed [13:02] this other leg. And I know that there are people who are like, I wonder what happened to Dina, her Instagram, and then I'm no longer searchable. But also that's life.

[13:10] That's life. [13:11] That's actually how it should be. [13:14] With a lot of those relationships. Totally. Totally. [13:16] Yeah, totally. Under Michael's tweet, there is a counterpoint where it's like, we probably would not have stayed in touch with these people at all. [13:23] And this way, it's actually pretty easy to rekindle the relationships if location and time permit. [13:27] Which I think is a nice thought, but like also... That's nice. [13:30] That's wholesome. That's a wholesome thought. [13:32] What's your relationship to Instagram and your friendships? [13:35] I had a similar situation, but not without my consent. Involuntary. Involuntary. Yeah. We were in Bogota for... [13:46] DevCon a few years ago. [13:48] And I had an Instagram account and it didn't. I mean, I think it had like 2000 followers. Like it was just like people you had picked up along the way of my life. Yeah. The social media hitchhikers. Exactly. The riffraff. And then, you know, close friends or friends that I... [14:05] grew up with or went to high school with or whatever. And... [14:09] Then it got hacked. [14:11] And then gone. It was gone. It was like deleted or... [14:14] removed or no way of getting it back. And I tried. I really tried to get it back. I was like, I... [14:20] I don't know why. I just had this connection to it. I didn't want [14:24] to lose the account. I didn't have the same feeling as you, where it was like freedom. I was like, no. [14:29] all this digital [14:32] memory or something felt important to hold on to. And then after a few months, I was like, wow, there's people that I haven't thought about

[14:40] that I was thinking about literally every day. [14:43] That like I... [14:45] don't need to think about and shouldn't. And then it was like months later, I was like, wow, this is really nice to not have this and to not be reminded of random people and all the feelings and baggage that comes up with those relationships, literally a daily basis. Then the reason why we both got our Instagram accounts is Kate. [15:05] the lovely Kate on our team was like you guys need to have Instagram even if you don't post like it's just nice to know that you're a human being on the internet that's true that is why we started I forgot about that that's why and so we're like okay fine and so we both started accounts [15:19] And mine started sort of as like a meme account. I was like posting memes a lot on main, on feed. Like I was just like, what's a different way [15:26] How can I have fun with this? Like, how can this not be like performative? How can this whatever? And I have tried to be really selective about only following people that I am in real relationship with. There are some people who are like childhood friends who I love so much. My childhood friend, Charlie. And I want to see her kids every day. And I want to know what they're grilling. I do. I want to be in... [15:46] but there's six other versions of that relationship that I don't want to see. And so just trying to be really structured about one, only following people that I'm actually in relationship with. And then the other thing that I've really tried to do is not follow brands. [16:00] Because my experience of Instagram for the most part is when it's not seeing people that I actually love and care about. When it's not seeing stuff that you're posting about your family, which like literally brings me joy. I see it and I'm just like, this is so nice. I want to see the Crocs and I want to see Bruno doing dumb shit at weird places. And it makes me so happy. Yeah. And if it's not that...

[16:23] What my experience to Instagram is, is here are all the things you need to buy. [16:27] Chao, bang. [16:28] And here's how thin you need to be. [16:29] That is like literally my only experience of... [16:31] Instagram besides that. Yeah. And if you're, if I'm just endlessly scrolling, I'm, [16:36] That's literally all that it is. It's actually kind of crazy and so sad. Sometimes there's some funny things peppered in there. Like every once in a while, there's like a really funny video. It's not a funny place. It's not a funny place. It's not really a funny place. So anyway, that's what my relationship to Instagram is. And I feel like I've had to flex a muscle of discipline around. I'll start to follow somebody that I meet at a bar or something like that. And I've been pretty cold about if I see a story from them and I'm like, I don't know this person to unfollow them pretty quickly. [17:06] This is waste. This is digital waste that is just taking up my eyeballs in my space. Yeah. And so now people will know if I follow them and I quickly unfollow them. Tough. Tough. And then the second thing that I'll say around friendship is I feel like I have had [17:22] a really [17:25] a world-class bad summer. [17:27] Let's just put it that way. I saw a great tweet the other day that was like, I had a brat summer two years ago and I had to heal from that shit for the next three years. [17:38] And I was like, that's so funny. But the silver lining, the gift of this summer has been that how much female friendships are... [17:50] what it's all about. It's so silly to say it that way, but...

[17:56] There have been so many moments this summer where... [18:00] one of the [18:02] the women in my life have been... [18:06] Like... [18:07] An angel like a godsend someone who I genuinely feel like I [18:13] I can't even believe that this person... [18:17] I get to have this person in my life and I get to feel the love that they have for me and the support that they have for me and... [18:24] It's... [18:26] such a gift to have good friends. It's such a gift to have that. And I keep saying female friendships and I think we could have a whole podcast episode on the complexity of... [18:38] men and their relationship to each other. And I just think one of the gifts of being a woman is being able to have an emotional depth with another human being. There's a million reasons why men have a harder time doing it, but I think that it makes you a better person. I think men aren't taught to tell each other, how are you and are you okay? And what's going on and how can I care for you? And... [19:02] because women have been taught to be nurturing for the most part as they grow up, I think they [19:09] And these are like totally broad strokes generalizations. Of course, there's a million different genders and ways of being in the world. But broad strokes. I have been taught and have learned how to care for other people and to ask questions and be there and...

[19:26] Also... [19:27] have had the gift of that experience. And when you're in a season, I think, of need or a season of transition or identity, you [19:36] shift and [19:38] There's all this new surface area for how your relationships change. And I think some of that has been. [19:43] hard. [19:43] really hard. [19:44] And some of that in other female relationships are like just realizing that as you change as a person, every single one of your relationship changes. Yeah. That I didn't anticipate going into a new season of my life. And there have been some things that have been really challenging in that. [20:00] And there's also all this new surface area for... [20:04] friendships that you didn't have a certain type of dynamic with to, you [20:09] show up for you in a new kind of way. And there's specific faces and people that I think about this summer that I never would have relied on in the way that I've relied on this past few months. [20:21] That's been... [20:23] really amazing and has made me reflect a lot about gender and what the upsides of being a woman. There's a lot of downsides. But this is a real clear upside. I don't know. That was not where I was expecting to go with that. But I have been doing these morning pages every morning and I get to the end of you have to do three pages. It's 30 minutes. It's really hard most mornings. I don't want to do it most mornings. And I would say the first 20 minutes are not positive. They're not... [20:51] happy feelings and then there's all this other stuff and then i would say the last half of page

[20:56] It's almost always like gratitude for my friends. - Yeah. [21:02] the people in my life and [21:04] that [21:05] It's really special to think about. And anyway, what do you think? [21:09] Do you know of other people's experience with morning pages? If that's common? [21:13] She said in the book when she talks about warning pages, she was like, a lot of people are like... [21:18] Why am I doing this? Because it's supposed to be a stream of consciousness. It's not supposed to be journaling. It's not like, this is what I did last week. [21:25] Literally what's going through your head. And like just writing it down. [21:30] And... [21:30] She was like, a lot of people were like, why should I spend 30 minutes just putting all the bad thoughts down? Isn't this a toxic thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm putting my attention on the bad stuff. [21:40] I'm putting my attention on that stuff. And her response is you're getting it out of your mind. Like you're, you're moving through that. And every day is different and every season is different. So that could just be the season that I'm in. But a lot of it has been my experience, but yeah, I don't know other people. [21:58] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly.

[22:27] B at kraken.com backslash boys club, not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive Inc. No third-party transfers available. [22:40] I know you've had a tough summer and I love to hear the silver lining. I'm so happy genuinely to hear that. I think that my relationship to friendship, I feel challenged by it right now. I think that one, I've always been really bad at keeping in touch. [22:56] really extraordinarily bad at keeping in touch with old friends. And so I like, even in having this conversation, I'm like feeling some guilt about it because I'm like, man, I, [23:05] There are some people that I should call. [23:08] Mm-hmm. And [23:10] I haven't and I don't. In fairness, it extends to my family as well. It's not just my friends. So it's like I got all the gonna call my dad. But I think like part of why I feel challenged, you have an incredible community of female friends and IRL that are there with you in New York. And I, I feel some jealousy about that because I don't have that. Mm hmm. [23:31] And... [23:33] i think part of it is i moved to a new city and stuff like that but i think also what i struggle [23:38] with friendships sometimes is my kids are in full-time [23:42] daycare and school. So essentially, like everyone in this household has a full time job that we go and we leave. And Bruno clocking for his 40 hours a week, Oscar clocks in for his 40 hours a week. And then [23:54] We see each other on the weekends and at nights. And as I'm getting older, I turn 40 and I'm like, man, time goes, the march of time.

[24:01] persists sure does [24:04] And [24:05] takes no prisoners. And I think that I've been going through a transition around that. And I mean, we could talk about that maybe on some other podcasts, but part of it is just feeling I need to and want to spend time with my kids, more time with my kids. And I think that as I'm thinking about the priorities of my life, when it comes to the weekend and like calling a neighbor or whatever, I am either investing that time in someone else or I'm investing in my kids. And like, yeah, it's unfortunately as binary of a decision as that, where it's like, I can spend my, I can spend [24:34] Saturday afternoon with my kids. [24:36] or I could go to something else, and that is investing in that other relationship. And it never [24:41] because [24:42] we're all out all week it never makes sense for me to not invest it in my kids so i'm just like time poor [24:49] right now and that has a direct impact on not only my friendships and relationships with other people but also like going to the gym and all these other things where my kids are only going to be four and eight [25:01] for another 200 days and then we're in a different phase and that's it forever. [25:06] And I've just been like really present to that lately. And so I think things have shifted around on my priority list and that's had an impact. And... [25:15] It. [25:16] Makes me feel bad. [25:17] yeah but it's also like i have full agency in that choice but it's just not a season of friendship [25:23] Yeah. You know, totally. And I think what it comes back to what I was sort of saying at the beginning of I feel like you attract where you are in your life. And like that can bring really negative things where you're like, why was this happening? And it's weird. It's like.

[25:38] the god or the universe or whatever you want to call it there's something that happens when you open something up you start to attract stuff and [25:47] Sometimes that stuff is really hard. And then some of it is when you're in a season of vulnerability, it's an invitation to people around you to be mutually vulnerable and to be like, wow, this thing is going on in my life or whatever. And part of the depth of the friendships that I feel like I've been in is because I'm this open nerve and there's a safety of, oh, well, there's some shit going on with me too. And like, this is what it is. And in that, a lot of those conversations have been about complexity and difficulty in relationship. [26:17] that happens as you get older with friendship is exactly what you're speaking to, where people have [26:22] such limited time in their life and where they're spending that time [26:26] There are so many... [26:28] areas where you're making a decision of value to, [26:32] assessment on where my hour is going and how does that [26:36] affect my relationships and especially when you have kids like i see it in the life of my friends in brooklyn who have kids where it's just like if you work and you have kids that's what you're doing yeah that's it those are the things that you're doing those are the two things that you [26:49] I am really empathetic to where you're at because I see you having to make those calculations every day, even with the work of like, [26:57] "Man, I have to do this thing?" And instead of being with my child, I'm gonna do this thing. When the work's cool and interesting and fun and there's energy around it, it's great. But when it's not, it's like, what is the point of this? I just think that having kids and having a family is like a real,

[27:17] value reset around every decision in your life. And, [27:20] That's really beautiful. And there's some days where I'm really envious of that in other people and like wish I had that desire because what a beautiful like meaning making tool and what a value driver. But then on the other hand, constantly having to evaluate your time is like absolutely terrible. Yeah, yeah. [27:37] It does bring some clarity to it. [27:40] Yeah. It does help you look at [27:43] things pretty soberly to be like what am I getting out of this and not just tangibly but how is this filling my cup and what is that in relationship to this other thing so I feel like the most generous thing that [27:59] you can do for a friend and like the most generous, um, [28:02] what [28:03] way that people have been friends with me when I've been most grateful for my friendships and what I [28:08] want to try and do more of. There's this like little graphic that I think about all the time, honestly. It's a little stick figure and the sticker check in one person that says you've changed and the person [28:16] that they're talking to. [28:18] says, "Oh, I should hope so." There's a recognition and appreciation for [28:24] someone changing over time and i think the most generous friendships are one that like don't hold you to what [28:30] any [28:31] thing that you've been in the past and give you the space for growing in whatever shape [28:37] and in that being a continuous and continual thing that you're hoping for that for that person. Yeah, that's something that I... [28:43] want for myself to bring to the friendships that I'm in and

[28:49] I don't know. [28:49] Yeah. [28:51] I love that you said like a really deep thing. I don't know. [28:53] Oh, I love that. Honestly, kind of full circle comes back to your feeling sick on opening your Instagram. [29:00] Because that wasn't allowing you. It wasn't allowing me. Exactly. Change. Exactly. Yeah, a really bad change. [29:06] really bad feeling so delete your Instagram and call your friends that's the lesson [29:12] That's the lesson here. Okay. Okay. From Idris Elba to Stripe to the Central Bank of Brazil, the sixth annual Stellar Meridian Conference in London has the range. Join policymakers, investors, builders, and more on October 15th through 17th in London to talk about how crypto is transforming everyday financial services right now. Tickets are going fast, so get yours now at meridian.stellar.org.