Ep 150: Feelings Check-In. IRL identity vs. Online identity

[00:00] - I was co-working with a friend yesterday. [00:02] and [00:03] he was like do you want us in [00:04] And I was like, oh, I can't do a Zin. I'm really sensitive to caffeine. And he was like, what do you mean? And I was like, isn't there caffeine in it? He's like, no, it's just nicotine. And this whole time I was thinking that Zins were caffeine and nicotine. Because everybody's like, get you like juiced up. Yeah. And I was like, oh, okay, great. And wow. Did you have a good time? I had a great time. The Feelings Check-In is a podcast for people who love to listen to two women overshare about the challenges of building a business, navigating careers in tech, and trying to have a personal life. [00:34] I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. [00:42] The boys club podcast. No, no. [00:45] Just boys club. Did you find it gave you increased mental clarity? [00:48] um that's not what i found okay okay but also kind of high [00:52] I hadn't eaten. A little buzz. I was buzzing. I was definitely buzzing. But I think in a different environment, if I had been like... [00:59] nutritionally, [01:00] filled and in a different headspace I think I could see myself locking in and it being like really productive okay so I'm drinking [01:08] No, I mean, I had a kombucha, but I think the IPV is pretty low on that. [01:14] I don't know. I could see myself getting really into it. Yeah. So the only thing is like, I really felt like you could see it. Like the whole time I was like, can you see it? Can you see it? And everybody was like, what? No. [01:24] But it feels, I think probably also because of my lip flip. [01:28] Like, I was like, I have no control over my upper lip. So this thing's just going to fall right out.

[01:33] You're like taking a sip and all the water is going on. The water and the zin falls out. [01:38] anyway yeah so i i've been meaning to talk to you about that and also i on this podcast i was like i can't do zen i am too sensitive to caffeine last week and i'm like wow a lot of people were listening and like she's a fucking idiot [01:52] Ha ha ha. [01:54] I don't think that's an uncommon feeling listening to this podcast. Not you specifically, but me as well. But that's so funny. Okay, welcome to the feelings check-in. [02:06] Natasha I'm Dina this is where we share about our lives and our career and the things that we've been thinking about and feeling and on our best day this is a podcast where people listen and feel seen and understood and like there's other people in the world that are just like them and feel less alone or turn inward a little bit which is cool on the worst day. [02:30] It's... [02:31] just two yappers yapping um i recently lost my voice this week it's almost fully back but there's some moments where i sound [02:39] Just wonderful. [02:40] and my voice is cracky and weird. And so if this is the first time you're ever listening... [02:46] you're getting a really special, special version of me that I do actually really like. I'm just like, wait, what would it be like to just be... [02:53] Like a Parker voice. A Parker voice. Yeah. Parker is such a great voice. Okay. [02:58] So today we're going to talk about two things. [03:00] We're going to talk about [03:01] The first one being this idea of your relationship to the online persona of someone or the online identity of yourself and the real life version of it and what that can feel like.

[03:12] And then the second is that we're working on our fifth drop. [03:17] - As boys club? [03:19] And we're going to talk a little bit about what that looks like. I had someone text me the other day and was like, you need to teach me how to sell merch. And I was like, first of all, it's apparel. [03:27] And second of all, don't do it. And third of all, don't learn from us. And third of all, call somebody else. Call someone who's actually making money off of it, because it couldn't be us. [03:36] Okay, let's get into it. [03:38] Thank you. [03:40] Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way. [04:09] I went on a walk this morning and... [04:32] listen to [04:33] First of all, what won't a walk heal? [04:36] You've been really into walks recently. Well, you've been really into communicating that you've been on walks. I... [04:42] Agree my average step count these days is like 16,000 steps a day. Yeah, totally. Oh my gosh. No, I'll post it I'll put it on main. I'm so proud of how much I'm walking and

[04:55] It... [04:56] it's everything to me. It is, I think, the meaning of life. I think so too. It's like, oh, we just need to go on a walk. Just go on a little walk. [05:06] Just go on a little walk. Just go on a little walk. What won't it fix? [05:09] A lot. I think it, of course, it won't fix anything really, but it will. [05:15] help certainly put you in a better mind [05:17] space to [05:19] think through the things that you're looking to fix. [05:21] Totally. My biggest recommendation is if you are on a hot girl walk or a sad girl walk or any type of walk is a big part of it is not being on your phone. Oh, totally. Yeah. And I made that mistake yesterday just being on my phone on my walk. And I was like, actually, this didn't help. Oh, no. Like texting? Like a texting walk? Scrolling walk? [05:40] scrolling, scrolling... [05:43] and reading some emails and looking at apartments on a walk. And then ran into somebody and they were like, hey. And I was like, ah, like I was like so scared because I'm so inside of the cell phone. So that's my recommendation to people. I don't do that a lot. Just for the record, my walks are usually off. [06:04] off chain off the phone but this one yesterday wasn't um [06:10] And it doesn't do the same thing. So anyway, so you went on a walk this morning. I went on a long walk this morning, very intentionally, like, [06:17] made my husband do camp drop off and I was like, I need to take this walk. Great. I need to have. I'm really proud of you. [06:24] Thank you. I now have to then do camp pickup. So I will pay the price. Okay, there was an exchange. Yes, but I went a long walk and token gay daddy's my friend.

[06:34] Jack, he had telegrammed me last night and he was talking about how the latest episode of Pivot... [06:40] Okay. [06:41] Kara Swisher was talking about. Of course. They're talking about the election and the candidates and Kamala and... [06:47] And Kamala's relationship to the tech industry and how she's voted in the past on things like privacy. And anyway, so he was like, you should listen to it. Listen to it. It was a really interesting episode. And all that to say... [06:59] This is not going to be a political [07:02] It's not. [07:03] We're trying our damnedest to get outside of it. It's very tough. It's very tough. I will say it's pretty much all I'm thinking about. [07:12] reading about and so it's very hard to [07:16] extract myself from that conversation right now, but [07:19] This isn't all the internet is talking about the internet is talking about. Yeah. [07:22] Thank you. [07:23] And... [07:25] I'm also present to it. [07:28] just being kind of this like, [07:29] at this point, dark form of entertainment. [07:32] Uh-huh. Totally. Yeah. And I'm like, is that why I'm watching? Is that why I can't stop scrolling around it? [07:39] And so anyway, that's just like a personal feeling that I'm struggling with right now. But all I'd say, this is not going to be a political podcast, but I will. There is one piece of the Kamala puzzle that I've been thinking about a lot recently that I think we can extrapolate out into a wider conversation, which is this idea of [07:54] of why the social media stuff around Kamala has worked in a way that it [07:59] didn't work for Joe Biden, hasn't worked in the past for Joe Biden. And just generally, there's always been this kind of

[08:04] sentiment, [08:06] where liberal or like memes from the left [08:09] don't work like they never work because it's too earnest and all of these different reasons and the rights just like way better at shit posting and like yeah and [08:18] putting their sort of like full chest behind it. Yeah. All the dark brand and stuff around Joe Biden and the red laser eyes like it was kind of like, what are we doing? And it's never really worked. But for some reason, [08:28] Over the past. [08:29] weeks stuff has worked around Kamala and has felt more believable and I think there's a lot of different reasons for that I also think part of it is that there's a huge degree of nihilism in it where it's been like the past couple months have been so dark for people who are yeah [08:42] young and very online and maybe left-leaning and I think that Joe Biden's stepping down and her coming in like has been [08:49] Part of the euphoria on social media has been like a release valve around that tension of like, man, things have been so dark and she's not great. But it's like, man, so much better than what we had. And so there's I do think that that's a big part of it. I don't think people are like really fully, fully, fully endorsing Kamala. But anyway, all it's not a political episode. I'm like, wow, we're getting into it. I'm sorry. Just one thing about it is this idea. I was reading the Garbage Day newsletter, which I really recommend.

[09:19] fully in on it. And I think it was them who were talking about this idea of a dual sphere where a candidate, but really any public person, any celebrity is constantly managing two personas where they have their [09:34] offline [09:36] IRL appearances and work whether they're a performer or they're a political candidate or whoever they are. It's like what's happening in the real world and how they show up in the real world and then [09:49] what's happening with their online persona and how they show up on the timeline and how they show up on social media. And that those two things, they need to complement each other in order for both to be effective. And [10:02] when they don't [10:04] when there's a disconnect you like feel it really strong i think that was what was happening with joe biden anyway i've been thinking a lot about [10:11] this idea of the dual sphere and [10:15] how in a modern world managing [10:19] these two parts of ourselves for people who choose to be online and to show up online and to have a public profile. That's a thing to manage and how you're showing up in the real world need to match. And when they don't and when you meet someone, [10:32] who you're like, "Man, [10:34] I thought they were really different because of how they were online. It's so jarring. It really sticks with you. I think what's interesting about what you're saying is that you were saying it's public figures and celebrities and politicians and things like that. But I actually think we're in an era. [10:47] A fundamental shift has happened where everybody who is online has that experience now, where they're managing a...

[10:53] digital persona of themselves along with, [10:57] their real [10:58] IRL selves and there's a [11:02] pendulum of how much management that is happening between those two and honestly i think for some people how much of their digital selves is more their true selves than [11:12] who they are in real life. And I think that we will continue to see that more and more. [11:17] with younger and younger people as more of their identity has been formed by how they experience the world. [11:23] mostly online. So I think it's interesting because that is [11:27] a modern era problem for people, especially if you work online or you work on the internet. [11:34] It's very difficult to... [11:37] not be in [11:39] a constant loop around either wanting to be like, how am I my truest self online, which is how I feel. I'm not the type of person who's like, okay, I'm going to have a persona on the internet, and then I'm going to be myself in person. My choice as a [11:53] person who's on the internet. [11:55] is... [11:56] to try to have the same version of myself in person [12:00] And online. Like... [12:02] And I think that is one strategy. Mm-hmm. [12:04] or one way of approaching it. And I think other people's way of approaching it is, [12:09] And they get a lot of freedom from this. I'm going to be a version of myself. I'm going to have a persona of myself that exists online. And that gives them an ability to have a character that they can tap into. [12:22] that is actually like healthier for them.

[12:25] And then they can just be themselves. [12:27] when they're with people and whatever. And so... [12:30] It's interesting because I think both pads are... [12:32] totally legitimate and I think when you're a public figure you're having to manage that in a very different way because you need people to in Kamal's world vote for her and like her for a celebrity some people it's about like being wanted or whatever there's all these different reasons why you need to manage that public persona but I think it also extends to a brand and I think that that is what we feel with boys club is like when it's a brand and it's a brand. [12:57] What does that mean for people experiencing it in real life? And for us, that's pretty clear. It's like events, it's the community, it's like how people engage with both of those branches of the brand coming to life. And I think it's interesting when you think about. [13:13] marketing and products and things like that. When I think about beauty brands like Glossier or Rode or whatever, the digital experience of that brand sometimes doesn't match [13:23] those products and that like when you get the road box and you're like actually [13:26] this [13:28] like kind of sucks i like it but i do think that people i do think that people have had that experience yeah no i remember an amazing tweet that was like went to glossier for the first time today and bought a ton of products this is the worst and like why that is so funny and why that lands is because the experience of that brand online is incredible and so fun and so people are obsessed with it and so it's interesting to see now how there's this thing that happened where the shift happened between digital lives and physical lives for public figures and then i

[13:58] into individuals anywhere who are having the experience of how to, how am I showing up on the internet? And I feel like over the course of this summer, I've had a real experience. [14:07] personal renewal of that feeling. And it's pretty terrible to be like, how am I being perceived on the Internet? And that [14:15] is really unpleasant. And then I think the third stage of that has been brands and how brands have like that [14:21] experience of [14:22] with people and their customers and how it shows up IRL versus like digitally. Yeah. [14:26] Yeah, we need a word for it. You know, the term uncanny valley where like the closer robot is to being a human, the less you like it because you're like, this is something's off about this. We need that for... [14:39] the disconnect of someone's online and offline. [14:42] persona where I feel like it matches perfectly it's great but if it's off [14:45] Mm-hmm. [14:46] Oh my gosh, I have a really funny story for you. This is such a deep cut, but Alex Zhang and I were in Paris a few weeks ago and we walked into a bar and we both looked at this person. [14:55] And then we both looked at each other and I was like, oh my God, that girl looks so much like little Michaela, who is the robot teen. Like the AI fake influencer. The AI fake influencer. Oh, real influencer, but she's AI. That Trevor created. And he was like, oh my God, I was thinking the same thing. Did she have like little buns? She looked exactly like her. It was so weird. And we were both just like, oh my God. And it was such an uncanny valley moment where I was like, oh, she's here. [15:22] It was really funny. That's so funny. Anyway, how do you feel about managing an online persona, both for yourself and a brand? I mean, I think with the brand, I'm just like, I'm really I don't want us to be in that uncanny valley. And I'm constantly wanting to make sure that how we're showing up online matches people's experience.

[15:40] offline and i think that that is about cultivating something that feels welcoming but also cool but also smart but also you know it's just that's a balance and i think that every brand owner wants that to match i don't think i think that's the goal of anyone who's managing something that has an offline component as well or product component um i think for myself [16:01] I'm interested in crypto, I'm interested in technology, I'm interested in internet culture, I'm online constantly. It's part of my job, but it's also I really enjoy it. I think it's hilarious. I'm also an addict. And so that's all kind of like bundled up to my online experience. And the tension for me is [16:18] my IRL life [16:20] is actually pretty... [16:22] not trad, but like I'm a mom. [16:24] And I go to daycare drop off and I go to camp pickup and I'm doing the school walks. YMCA pool. YMCA pool. And I'm in community with... [16:36] a lot of other [16:38] People... [16:39] women, especially who I don't think have any [16:43] sense for that side of me. [16:45] And so I think that is a tension for me [16:49] I was at a barbecue. [16:50] a couple of weeks ago with some neighbors and I was like, I don't think I'm going to bring up that I'm going to Brussels to a crypto conference tomorrow because that is just so... [16:57] First of all, I don't want to talk about crypto with these people. I don't know where they are landing ideologically around it. And I can't imagine it would be positive. And I don't want to like, I don't want to like bear that weight right now in this environment. You're like, I can't be an evangelist for this right now. Exactly. I'm like, I don't, I just want to.

[17:16] Have a Mike's hard lemonade and a hot dog and chill. [17:19] And Mike's hard. Wow. Deep cut. Deep, deep cut. And I actually wasn't doing that, but it was there. It was in the room with us. [17:30] But also I think part of it is like, [17:33] I don't know. [17:35] it reveals something about [17:37] Me that... Yeah. [17:39] I'm kind of unwilling to bring into a lot of your closeted internet addict. Exactly. Exactly. So anyway, that's that's what it is mostly for me. Yeah, I think we talked a little bit about this, or I wrote about it in the newsletter, but [17:54] My last week in Paris, I had a friend [17:57] my friend Katie come visit me and she's a deeply offline person. She's super into reality TV. So she does have some context and she is. [18:07] will listen to a lot of like [18:09] the [18:11] reality TV stars podcasts, which talk a lot about internet culture because in pop culture and stuff like that. So she like knows it in her brain, but doesn't know it in her heart. And like, so she'll be like, at one point she was putting on green socks and I was like, [18:26] oh my god katie like it's so brat summer and she was like i don't know and i was like laughing so hard and she was like i wish i could know what you're talking about i don't know what you're talking about and i was like you know like charlie xcx had an album and so that album was called brat and so people and i'm like explaining to her and she's like oh yes and she like had some context in the back of her head for it but not in [18:45] And [18:46] We stayed together for a week.

[18:48] It just was so exposing to me at all. [18:51] and many points in our conversation throughout the day, how much of my... [18:56] view of the world [18:57] is completely shaped. [18:59] by how much time I spend on the internet. - Totally. [19:02] I don't know if you've seen this episode of 30 Rock, but there's an episode of 30 Rock where Kenneth, who's sort of like the wackadoo page, [19:10] is [19:11] There's [19:12] a time where the camera sort of switches to the way that he sees the world. [19:17] and everybody is Muppets. [19:20] Yes, I love that. Do you know what I'm talking about? I do, yeah, yeah. Okay, and so everybody's Muppets and-- [19:26] I kind of feel that way about [19:28] me. [19:29] looking at the world, but it's all just little internet memes. And like every single person is an internet meme. And I'm like, my brain is totally broken. - Totally broken, mental illness. - Totally broken. - Absolutely. - It's mental illness. Yeah. So I don't know. With that context, coming back to what you had talked about, it's like, [19:47] I actually do not want... [19:49] to get to a point where I value the way that I'm perceived on the internet more than I value the way that I'm perceived in the real world and the way that I treat people and engage with people. [20:00] in [20:01] my life. And I think when you are addicted to the internet, [20:05] and then you have any sort of creative output that you're putting on the internet, which we are doing, it becomes very difficult to, [20:12] care less about the way that you [20:15] are perceived. [20:16] And... [20:17] I...

[20:19] I don't have an answer for that, but I do feel the tension of that [20:23] Most days. [20:24] And sometimes I'm just like, I got to just log off and not tweet and not think about it. [20:31] Go on a hawker walk. [20:33] Yeah. Just one more thing to wrap it up here. It's actually asking for advice related to the subject. I have a tension, constant tension with my husband, Dave. [20:41] where he's very offline. [20:43] and in the clouds and is an artist and is just like living his own. He's so wonderful. It's totally. We love Dave. We love Dave so much. He's so offline and but you know he'll scroll occasionally and [20:57] Everyone's a while he'll bring something to, I'm constantly sending him stuff, constantly. Yeah. That's our dynamic. [21:03] I'll get something back from him. That's like, have you seen this? [21:06] and of course you've already seen it I've already seen it of course of course like 100% of the time I've already seen it yeah [21:17] And I [21:19] I have to say to him, I've already seen this. I think you should start lying. And he's like, that's the most annoying thing. Like, stop. Like, it's so annoying. Totally, that's so annoying. He gets so annoyed with me. Of course. So you think I just should let him have it? As someone who's never, ever been able to lie, not once in her life, I can't say this with my full chest because I couldn't do it. So... [21:39] I'm sorry to give you advice that I [21:41] won't take myself. But... [21:44] I do think you should lie. [21:46] Or just try a different approach.

[21:49] Just be like... [21:50] Okay. And just laugh and not acknowledge that I've already seen it. [21:55] You don't need to say. I've seen it. It's like telling someone I told you so. [21:58] okay that's what you're doing i told you so okay you don't need to say that you can just say something else or you could even respond with like a build on that meme like if you've seen it then like build on you can build nice nice nice nice nice nice nice step over the fact that i've definitely seen it and already laughed about it why would you tell that because i've already had my moment with that thing that happened you know what i mean like [22:24] i've already experienced so dumb dina so dumb poor dave tell dave he can send me stuff okay if he's needing an outlet for i mean you've seen it you've definitely seen it too though yeah i just wouldn't tell him that i've seen it [22:39] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly. [23:08] We've yapped too much, so we don't actually need to talk about drops, which is great for you guys because we would share all of our trade secrets. All I'm going to tell you is that our fifth drop

[23:38] Thank you. [23:39] Three items. [23:40] is coming at the end of the summer. [23:43] And they're fun and they're stupid. And one of them came to me. [23:48] in a moment of just pure inspiration. And I love when that happens and to see it out in the world is going to be really fun. I do think it's going to piss a lot of people off, which is great. [23:58] Can't wait. Cannot wait. Can not wait. Additionally, we don't make that much money on these drops. And I just need to say that out loud. [24:07] We've... [24:08] By nice things, we do them in a nice way. [24:11] And then we do a bunch of creative stuff around them. We're doing a little party around it. And it is fun. [24:18] And it's fun only. And we can get into the dollars of cents with people who are interested. We'll share the spreadsheet with you if you really want to know. You're going to see a total profit profit. [24:28] $51. [24:32] That's what the calculation that I put into Excel revealed... [24:39] shockingly to me this morning when I was adjusting our numbers for this drop. When you do small batch, [24:44] You don't make that much money. And we do it for the love of the game. We genuinely do it for the love of the game. - We do it for the love of the game. [24:50] It is... [24:52] We're learning. [24:54] - By the fifth time, what's that saying about like, if you do the same thing over and over again and expect different results, you're insane? - It's insanity or something. I think that, [25:07] Yeah, small batch definitely hurts. Um...

[25:11] But, [25:12] I mean, just like opening... [25:14] the chest. It's [25:16] Thank you. [25:16] marketing relevancy attention economy it's the game we're living in the attention economy we're in the game so that's kind of [25:24] That is what it is. And that's how we justify the hard work. Yeah. If we were to put our hours into our own personal time and hours into the spreadsheet that I made today. [25:33] majorly in the red. [25:35] Majorly in the red. [25:36] We're in the arena. [25:38] We're in the arena. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Okay. [25:42] Bye. [25:43] Bye. [25:44] *music*